Does Te'o get his job back?

[Yubaking]

For someone who 'doesn't particularly like' Phillips you spend a lot of time caressing his sack.

I can be objective about Phillips. He was a B player for us for several years. He was a much more effective and disruptive player early in his career. But toward the end he really blew. He certainly had moments as a pass rusher. And he was particularly effective in deflecting passes. He helped us win some games. But he also helped us lose a playoff game, was an out of shape dummy and was a key contributor to a playoff loss. He really helped create a loser culture. He was a B player. He was a D personality. Average that out and see what you get.

BTW, I noted with interest that your comparison of Ingram and Phillips was limited to the sacks metric which you claim to not be the only basis for your 'analyses.' However, empirically it is.

I have zero interest in caressing Phillips' sack and have not done so at all any more than you and Panama caressed Adrian Peterson's sack in your discussion of him and his current situation. I have had legitimate points to make about Phillips' performance on the field which I supported with statistical analysis whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees with that analysis. I am the one being neutral/objective in the face of the lynch mob just like you and Panama were making solid points about the Peterson situation in your posts despite the fact that they were not popular.

And most of the people on this forum, believing that Peterson is a child abuser, appear to have a slightly higher opinion of him than they do of Phillips. IMO, in both cases posters have allowed their negative passions about those players to cloud their judgment.

Now, with respect to Panama's post, I challenged the assertion that Ingram is a better player for us than Phillips ever was. And you, yourself said it--Phillips used to be a more effective and disruptive player earlier in his career. I agree, which is why I don't think a guy that has only played 22 games for us with most of those coming as a rookie has quite reached that level yet.

I definitely think Ingram has the potential to surpass what Phillips was for us at his best, but that he has not done so yet. Is that really that controversial of an opinion to have?

[Panama]

Did I?

- Te'o had ONE good game; now he's injured again. Hardly the type that inspires confidence in this poster.
- To say he's been the best ILB on the team this season is NOT a compliment
- Is he NOT "a developing player with average physical skills and above-average intelligence"?
- The love for Te'o by you, and especially Panama, is mostly unwarranted, IMO. More hope and hype than production so far. Really, the guy has had about 3 good games (maybe).

I don't understand your last bullet point. Are you referring to my calling Manti 'Zer'o? If so, I think that is VERY clever. And MUCH more deserving than my 'Jackhole' nickname. Because Jackhole is actually talented. An asshole, for sure. But talented. Te'o is NOT an asshole; but he's far from being the star that Jackhole is.

I will go back at look at post #56.

Am I showing Te'o love? That's news to me, but ok, if you say so.

I simply try (not that I always succeed) to be fair. You and others are evaluating Te'o as if he were a 1st-rounder, not a 3rd-rounder. Some of the expectations are unrealistic.

Te'o has had 3 decent games this season. He has played quickly and usually diagnosed the play correctly. He doesn't miss assignments. However (and I have pointed this out repeatedly, which makes me wonder where you get that I'm a Te'o fanboy), he often seems to get dragged a few yards when making a tackle, and he bit badly on a pumpfake in the Cardinals game which left the RB open for an easy TD. He has not been perfect, but, yes, he has been better than Conner this season (obviously, I'm including PS, since Conner has only taken one LB snap this RS) and does deserve to get his job back when he's healthy. As has been noted by others, if Conner plays well, the one who should be concerned is Butler, not Te'o.

[Beerman]

Should table this discussion for 3.5 hours. Then you actually have something of value to discuss.

[Panama]

I have zero interest in caressing Phillips' sack and have not done so at all any more than you and Panama caressed Adrian Peterson's sack in your discussion of him and his current situation. I have had legitimate points to make about Phillips' performance on the field which I supported with statistical analysis whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees with that analysis. I am the one being neutral/objective in the face of the lynch mob just like you and Panama were making solid points about the Peterson situation in your posts despite the fact that they were not popular.

And most of the people on this forum, believing that Peterson is a child abuser, appear to have a slightly higher opinion of him than they do of Phillips. IMO, in both cases posters have allowed their negative passions about those players to cloud their judgment.

Now, with respect to Panama's post, I challenged the assertion that Ingram is a better player for us than Phillips ever was. And you, yourself said it--Phillips used to be a more effective and disruptive player earlier in his career. I agree, which is why I don't think a guy that has only played 22 games for us with most of those coming as a rookie has quite reached that level yet.

I definitely think Ingram has the potential to surpass what Phillips was for us at his best, but that he has not done so yet. Is that really that controversial of an opinion to have?

Go ahead and continue to display your ignorance. We never defended *Peterson*. Rather, we defended the principle of due process and the idea that the accused should not be materially deprived unless he is convicted of the crime. If you're half the lawyer you claim to be, I'm surprised this distinction is lost on you.

[thelightningwill]

This Shaun Phillips argument is officially stupid and archaic. It's like Barrack Obama and John McCain holding a nationally-televised debate that lasts two years and discusses whether John Adams, on Feb. 2, 1783, should have worn his old, orange jacket that people thought made him look like a bitch or that new, blue jacket that looked good on occasion, but, on most days, was too fucked up to use.

Personally, I would have thought he should have tried the new blue jacket, but kept the old, orange one around just in case the new one didn't work out. And, having now seen that the new, blue jacket doesn't work, I still think the old, orange one should have been kept in storage. But, in the end, I don't give a shit. Not after more than a century. It's not like it made much of a difference anyway. And maybe the new, blue jacket along with his decision to resurrect the zombie version of Methuselah will pay off in the future. Either way, Adams still did some good shit and I doubt the old, orange jacket would have made his legacy noticeably better anyway.

[Yubaking]

Attaochu was seen by "most" as the last top level pass rusher still on the board, eh? According to whom? Mel Kiper? You? I love Attaochu and the trade up, but I'm not so much of a homer or a hater to suggest that he's eventually going to be a better pass rusher than someone taken after him. I can't know that. And I couldn't know that before the draft.

And Te'o has not performed as well (retrospectively) as Alonso, whom many teams passed on (including the Cardinals who picked a less productive player to-date in Minter...remember when you said Keim and the Cards were the geniuses? They (retrospectively) picked the least productive of the four). Alonso has surprised a lot of people and had a phenomenal rookie season. But now he is out with an ACL. Bostic and Te'o have statistically performed at parity.

Te'o 53 career tackles, 27 assists, 4 PD,
Minter 11 career tackles, 3 career assists
Alonso 87 career tackles, 72 assists, 2 sacks, 1 FF, 2 FR, 4 INT, 4 PD
Bostic 57 career tackles, 20 carer assists, 2 sacks, 1 FR, 1 INT, 2 PD

Moreover, you have excluded the possibility that Te'o might have been deemed a better fit with our scheme and personnel than some of the others. You continue to base all assessments on what all the draftniks think and say and give very little consideration of what NFL GMs and personnel people think (bc you and I are generally not privy to it). So your whole evaluative framework is poor bc you base it all on what the draftniks say and looking at everything in hindsight. Hey, I bet the Dolphins wish they had picked Sheldon Richardson over Dion Jordan. Even the Chiefs probably wish they had taken Kiko Alonso over Eric Fisher. I mean, really?

I'm not in love with Te'o and I can be completely objective about him. Like Buster Davis and English, a talented player that is injured all the time can become a bust, so I would never suggest that couldn't happen with Te'o especially after the injuries he's suffered thus far. But I'm also not about to write him off completely just yet. I would like to see the kid play without injury in order to really assess his talent. He slogged through last season on a bad foot, so it's hard to really evaluate what he's capable of because that would naturally affect, speed, quickness, coverage skills and the leverage and momentum needed to penetrate and make plays in the backfield. You didn't like the pick originally, which is fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But when you start to twist the facts to fit your opinion, then you're going to get a lot of heat.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that was our team management's rationale behind the trade up to get Attaochu. I think GMs can perceive a drop off in tiers of player ability. There was one that was believed to exist after the first round CBs (Gilbert, Fuller, Dennard, Verrett, Roby) in the 2014 draft. I agree with you that perceived player tiers may not reflect what ultimately happens in the careers of the various players, but there is nothing wrong about GMs having various pre-draft tier perceptions. That's part of what they are paid to do.

I have no problem with us having taken one of the 4 second round ILBs in the 2013 draft. I have no issue with Te'o either even though I preferred Bostic. (Note that I wouldn't have taken Alonso either, so I can't be critical of that.) The issue that I have is trading up to do it when all 4 are still on the board. I think that is bad draft strategy, but again, I have no major issue with the pick Te'o versus the others (although I was hoping our new ILB was going to be Bostic).

And yes, Arizona picked our pockets with the draft pick trade. They got a second round ILB and our pick. We got a second round ILB and lost a pick. It isn't difficult to venture a guess as to which team got the better of that deal. Honestly, in my heart of hearts, with Arizona showing a preference for LSU defenders, I don't think Arizona was ever going to take Te'o at #38. I think they were taking Minter all the way although I think there was no way for Telesco to know it at the time. When I praised Keim, it was for understanding that there were 4 similarly rated ILBs and getting an extra draft pick out of the situation. I can't say that his pick of Minter was or was not the right pick, but the draft strategy was right on the money once they knew they were going ILB in round 2 as there was no way all 4 ILBs were going to be gone at #45.

That's why it seems so strange to me that people think I am attempting to prove that I was right about having a complaint about the pick of Te'o in the context of this Conner/Te'o discussion. That represents a failure to comprehend why I didn't like the pick. And it also has nothing to do with why I like Conner. I think Conner has shown well in limited exposure. We will all find out soon if, with greater exposure, he will continue to play well. That's why I am not twisting facts at all. The kind of "twisting" that you appear to be suggesting I am guilty of in this instance would not in any way validate my reason for disliking the Te'o pick (i.e., the sacrifice of a 4th round pick).

[Yubaking]

Go ahead and continue to display your ignorance. We never defended *Peterson*. Rather, we defended the principle of due process and the idea that the accused should not be materially deprived unless he is convicted of the crime. If you're half the lawyer you claim to be, I'm surprised this distinction is lost on you.

First, as an attorney, when I defend a client's rights (whatever they may be) in a given situation, I am defending that client. It doesn't mean that I agree with the client's actions, so don't prove your ignorance by failing to understand that concept. Nobody is lumping you in with the pro-switch using, leave a bunch of marks on a 4-year-old child crowd.

In fact, encumbered with a legal education as I am, I wanted to compliment both you and ExBKR for doing a nice job of making some very solid arguments about due process and (in ExBKR's case especially), about some subtle cultural differences in the south that happened to set both of you up in a light more favorable to Peterson's position than the views of others on this forum do.

Believe me, that is exactly the experience I have in discussing Phillips, a player I do not particularly care for, on this forum, with its corresponding lynch mob of anti-Phillips folks. I make very straightforward statistical presentations about Phillips and his performance and am labeled as worse than the devil for it. That's why I thought the comparison was appropriate.

[Yubaking]

Should table this discussion for 3.5 hours. Then you actually have something of value to discuss.

Right on. Game time now!!!!

GO CHARGERS!!!

[homeless simpson]

You and others are evaluating Te'o as if he were a 1st-rounder, not a 3rd-rounder. Some of the expectations are unrealistic.

no, he's being evaluated as a 2nd rounder that we traded a pick for. not much different as far as expecting much from the other 2 nd rders we traded up for (weddle, who we used 3 draft picks on; and mouton who we used the pick from the cromartie trade).

Since Teo is neither bad nor spectacular, he's more on par of a Jacob Hester who we also traded up for ( neither bad not spectacular ).

[Panama]

no, he's being evaluated as a 2nd rounder that we traded a pick for. not much different as far as expecting much from the other 2 nd rders we traded up for (weddle, who we used 3 draft picks on; and mouton who we used the pick from the cromartie trade).

Since Teo is neither bad nor spectacular, he's more on par of a Jacob Hester who we also traded up for ( neither bad not spectacular ).

Oops, my bad! :redface: Got the round wrong. Still, I think some of the expectations are overblown. I agree with your assessment so far.

[blahblahblah]

I dont think Teo has to worry about his job if he can get healthy.

[Panama]

I dont think Teo has to worry about his job if he can get healthy.

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