Let's talk Earl Mitchell

[Yubaking]

You can't really compare players strictly on grades via PFF when they have such a discrepancy in snaps. Franklin played 340. Mitchell played 553. That in and of itself just shows the difference in players and the value each player has for his respective team. Clearly a player that is able to almost double the amount of snaps is worth more to the team.

I don't really know how they want to use Mitchell because he's not a typical space occupying NT. We could be switching schemes, who knows. I do know he gives us some versatility at the position with his ability to play DE as well or DT in our 4 man fronts.

Each player's value per snap is likely very close as both players were close to zero in terms of season long grading. My point is that if the two players are about even overall, you think Franklin's run defense was bad, but Mitchell is better than Franklin in terms of pass defense, that tells us that Mitchell's run defense is worse than Franklin's, which you have already suggested was bad. Unfortunately, we have a truckload of bad run defenders already. We need to be more stout on the DL, not less stout. Judging from the quote you attributed to Mitchell himself, even he understands that he is not a stout, run stuffing 3-4 NT. But that is what we need and that is why I am not liking the idea of Mitchell being our starting NT. It's just a bad fit.

[Beerman]

I don't really have an opinion in regards to Mitchell because I just don't know how they want to use him. I do think he will be a hell of a lot cheaper and still has upside to improve his play since that's what he's been basically doing every year. He also played 550 snaps last year so he should hold up well if we ask him to play multiple positions. No real injury history either at a cursory glance.

All I know is that I would prefer the team not invest all it's resources at one position. There are too many bargains to be had this offseason that would fill a multitude of holes we have with young, experienced players that should come relatively cheap.

The only position I wouldn't be too mad about if we blew our load would be at CB since it's a fulltime position and is our only real glaring hole where we have no other real option to start. If we have to start Lissemore for a year I don't think we would be that worse off. Not great, but not a disaster.

[rikardo]

If we do sign Earl Mitchell, this thread makes me believe he will be our new Jammer (critic all the time, move to another position, never Good enough no matter what you do) kind of player.

[Mister Hoarse]

Mods please move to Beers superior thread!

Thanks!

Time to open this superior beers

[Yubaking]

A lot worse? 12th scoring defense? We didn't get blown out once. I don't even think we lost a game by double digits. We weren't a dominant defense for sure, but we sure as hell weren't terrible, let alone worse than in 2012.

We were way worse last year than we were in 2012. We went from 5th to 27th in YPC against (3.8 yards per carry against to 4.6 yards per carry against). We went from 12th in YPA against to 30th in YPA against (from 6.9 YPA against to 8.0 YPA against). To give you an idea of just how big of a drop off that is, please note that only Chicago had a bigger drop off in either run defense or pass defense, actually falling even further in both categories than we did. We had the second biggest drop off in performance in each category individually.

Our points allowed were virtually identical for the two seasons (within two points of each other), but this is due to the difference in the two offenses. The 2012 offense was awful. It gave up 5 more turnovers than the 2013 offense. And we all know that the 2013 offense was right at the top in terms of time of possession. Basically, the 2012 offense was an anchor that dragged down the 2012 defense, while the 2013 offense was the broad shoulders that carried the 2013 defense and the 2013 defense was still statistically much worse in most categories.

Also, the 2012 defense had 11 more takeaways than the 2013 defense did and it turned a bunch of them into TDs, so the 2012 defense was the much better net scoring defense.

We did lose to the Raiders by 10, but being in games was due to the comparatively much better ball controlling and fewer mistakes making offense more so than the defense. The defense was awful last year.

[Yubaking]

So you want to bench our young highly drafted DE in Reyes. Clearly you don't get the process in developing players.

Telesco is the one that is apparently considering bringing in Mitchell. I am just trying to find a spot where he fits. It isn't at NT, so what's left? If Reyes can beat him out, then Reyes can start and Mitchell can be a reserve as I would probably start Lissemore over Mitchell at NT because Lissemore is reasonably good against the run.

Of course, the point in this is that I wouldn't want to add Mitchell, but if we get him, then we are stuck with trying to find a way to use him.

[Panama]

I think this post means that Mitchell will be a Pro-Bowler next year. Get on it, TT!

Rep!

[Panama]

Let me start off by saying that Telesco has made some very good moves this offseason in terms of re-signing players and restructuring certain contracts.

That said, it could be disastrous for us to sign Mitchell. He gives us nothing and would stand to take away valuable resources that we desperately need to use for players that would actually help us. Worse yet, adding him might convince Telesco not to draft Nix if he is available at #25 or even Justin Ellis later in the draft (i.e., something resembling an actual NT).

Even before anyone mentioned Mitchell on this board, I looked at Polian's grades and concluded that he must have been temporarily insane to give an A to Mitchell and deem him a top 6 FA overall. He has some other crazy grades as well. By contrast, PFF graded Mitchell negatively and worse than Cam Thomas last year. Soliai was ranked positively in double digits. CBSSports ranks Mitchell 97th among FAs with Soliai ranking 33rd. Yahoo ranks Mitchell 43rd out of 48 named free agent DL players. Soliai is ranked 16th.

Worse yet, Soliai's value would be better for us and Mitchell's value less for us. Mitchell is a 4-3 DT that played out of position as a NT last year. Soliai is a true 3-4 NT. But that's just scheme. It's even more of an issue when one considers that we have no real run stoppers on our DL save an undersized Lissemore (if he is going to be asked to play NT). I definitely would play Lissemore over Mitchell. The absolute last thing we need to do is to bring in another player that might struggle to hold the point of attack and that will not command any double teams. Mitchell makes us even softer than we were with Thomas.

Please, please, please pass on Mitchell.

I'm sorry, but I trust the judgment of people who actually watch players than those that mostly look at fuzzy numbers. This isn't baseball and we're not the Oakland As.

I don't know anything about Mitchell, but those in the know seem hi on him. If there's a reason I'd be against signing Mitchell, it would be that he might cost more than I'd want to spend on that position.

I hope we do pass on Nix. There's lots of other value at that position, and I'd rather my first rounder be someone who plays 100% of the snaps on his side of the ball rather than 20%. I suspect we might be taking Verrett, and from what I've read I'd be happy with that pick. In any case, I trust TT and reserve judgment until I've seen the draft pick play for us.

[Panama]

Oh well, at least one team with a deficient run defense gets it. Too bad it isn't us.

We once had one of the all-time great run defenses -- and a losing record. Let them have the run D; I'd rather have the wins.

[Panama]

Not sure where you have been living, but I said our moves would make our 2013 defense worse than our 2012 defense due to lack of quality depth and key losses. I am pretty sure that that is exactly what happened.

There were stretches last year when our D was historically bad. But there were also stretches where they were lights out. In the end, I would not at all say they were worse than the 2013 version. (And please don't bore me with worthless cumulative stats.)

[Panama]

Yes, our NTs only play 25-30 snaps per game. Good NTs play anywhere from a little more to a lot more than that.

(sigh) But my, you are stubborn!

In a 3-4, 3 down linemen play. In a nickel (2-5), 2 down linemen play. Teams play nickel somewhere between 70% and 80% of the time. Therefore, of the three down linemen who play in the 3-4, the one who is the least pass rusher comes of the field for 70% to 80% of the plays.

A good NT can be an all-world run stuffer but perhaps not be as good a pass rusher as the DEs, so he would not be in the nickel. Soliai is not a pass rusher. He would not play in our nickel even if he becomes the greatest run stuffer of all time. My understanding is that Nix is more of a run stuffer than pass rusher, so the same would apply to him.

So, yes, a good NT often only plays 20% to 30% of the defensive plays. The NTs you like to cite as playing more happen to be good pass rushers, or at least better pass rushers than their colleagues on the DL. But there are plenty of great NTs who are not pass rushers and, therefore, do not see a majority of defensive snaps.

It's really a simple concept, and it's been explained on here numerous times. I don't understand why you have such difficulty with it.

[Panama]

I don't see him returning unless it's on a minimum deal to compete for a backup position. I just don't see the point bringing him back at a position where we already know he has failed at repeatedly. We are already paying Lissemore to be our backup DE/NT 1 mill a year.

It wouldn't be for much money, correct. But I wouldn't say he has failed at it repeatedly. He has demonstrated that he is not starter material, but he has also demonstrated (both last season and in previous seasons) that he can be a solid player coming off the bench. I would be disappointed if he were our starting NT next year, but I would love to have him back as depth. I see no problem with both Lissemore and Thomas backing up Liuget, Reyes, and our starting NT.