Sorry Fellas. Mike McCoy is not the guy.

[MakoShark]

I'm pretty much angry the entire time watching games lol. Doesn't mean you should stop watching them

I've picked up on that in the game day threads, LOL!

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Yes. Too emotional. Never been able to put the game(s) into perspective. I get upset; cranky; angry. Big personal problem, I know. Before anyone suggests, meds don't help. It's kind of laughable, for sure. I preach not taking this shit seriously and then I get so wrapped up in the games I can't even watch them. Very hypocritical of me.

Well, I understand that. I don't quite have that issue, but I can identify with it. I get very anxious. My wife was gone for a meeting during most of the first quarter and then came home to watch. When she got home she wanted to tell me all about it (kind of an important meeting for her and for us), and I just didn't respond to it at all appropriately. Now in fairness to myself, she should have known better than to try to talk to me about anything else at that time but, still, I wasn't very nice. And then pretty much until the Ingram pick, I was standing up and sitting down and walking outside during the breaks and stuff. Just restless LOL

I remember as a kid, I would cry when the Chargers lost. I think that's why I always have this sinking feeling on Sundays, whether during football season or not. But I give you credit for finding a way to address it.

[Steve]

No timeouts needed. I aint offended.

We can agree to disagree on whether or not we were trying to get a first down. Yeah if a run pops no one is going to not take the first down but it was the same thing as something like Marty vs. the Jets running the ball when we got in to what he felt was FG range. You could argue Marty wasn't being conservative and he was trying to get more yardage or a first down by running the ball but you are just not going to see eye to eye with everyone else who thinks he was just handing the ball off and settling for the long FG try. Its a hand the ball off, don't do anything fancy, and just make dead sure you don't turn the ball over....thats what I think we did (after holding on #85). Gaining yardage or trying to get a first was pretty far down the priority list on those plays..

I think the Chargers were perfectly fine taking a 3 and out along with Cincy's timeouts and punting the ball back to them. That's what it looked like to me, if that makes me a moron in your book that's just fine with me but you are not going to convince me the Chargers were giving their best effort to get a first down after that insurmountable 3 yard penalty (who ever has hope of getting a first down when saddled with 1st and 13? The humanity!). That is what I have a problem with and if you disagree that's what they were doing the conversation can not progress.

In my mind that is the most blatant mistake of the season. It wasn't costly overall but it is more clearly a mistake than even the play calling in Washington at the end of regulation. Again not as big of a deal but more clearly a mistake.

If you agree they were more concerned about making Cincy call timeouts than they were about trying to get a first down than we can discuss further.

And I don't get Steves points at all in post #923. Thrown the ball downfield? Why did they need to that? It was 3 yard penalty, that is one of the smallest penalties you can even get. I was not saying we needed to start throwing bombs downfield, geez. We just needed to be more aggressive in seeking the first down. And this momentum talk is off base. Cincy took the lead at half and was getting the ball first. They did have the momentum at that point and we didn't get it back until we stopped them and went and took the lead in the second half. Arguing that run and punt gave us the momentum at half is not accurate, maybe you had that feeling personally but there is no basis to state that as anything more than your personal feeling.

You can't throw the ball short with 1:37 to go in the half inside your own 10. You have to throw the ball downfield. If you complete short passes, you run out of time. Those are even higher risk, because you also risk the int and/or incomplete passes. You are correct, you don't have to throw bombs, but you do have to start running routes 15-20 yards downfield. Once you start throwing passes past 10-12 yards, the chances of completing them goes way, way down. But there is no point throwing short passes at all. It is throw the ball downfield and try and score, or kill the clock. And since the throwing 15-20 yards downfield is low percentage, they opted to just try and kill the clock, which they did.

And I don't have any idea of what you think momentum is. In my mind, it is every player on a team knowing they dodged a bullet. The Cinci game we dodged a huge bullet coming out at the half only down by only 3, instead of down 21-7. That is the momentum swing. The players knew the game plan was to throw it in the 2nd half, they knew the D was going to be able to adjust. So, coming out of the 1st half just down by 3 is a defensive success. Maybe momentum is the wrong concept, but we succeeded magnificently.

As far as momentum talk, then there is never any basis for momentum being talked about. Any feeling you have about momentum is just as abstract as mine (it's just an quantifiable concept). So we should never, ever, ever talk about momentum, like our old coach used to (Norv didn't believe in it).

The part that hurt the Bengals the most, is I am pretty sure the Bengals felt like they were taking over the game right before Butler stripepd the ball. They had driven the length of the field. They were about to get a 1st and goal to go, and then if they had played good D (something they had done all season), been able to get the ball back and potentially score again by halftime. Then they have the fumble. We run the ball 3 times and bleed most of the time off the clock. Scfries has a great kick, followed by an equally spectacular effort by Stuckey, and Cinci has the ball back, but only marginal field position for a FG, and not enough time to really score a TD. Cinci uses the rest of the half to drive and get in field goal range, but never had a serious chance at scoring a TD. But for Cinci, they must have been feeling pretty good right up until Stuckey hit their punt returner, because a decent return there gives them a chance to take a shot for 7. So walking out with only 3 had to be a letdown. Especially for a Cinci team which is not a very strong passing team, who likes to mix in play action and running. They are at their best with a comfortable lead. That is what I meant by momentum shift.

[BlazingBolt]

What evidence do you have that the Chargers were not giving their "best effort?" Was the first run call to Mathews which gained 7 a best effort play because it gained 7? The penalty was an 8 yard penalty.

Look, my issue with your argument is that it's totally without context. You keep talking about 1st and 13 as if they didn't gain 7 on the first play of the series. You ignore the difference in field position between the 16 and 8 (You also claim that they are essentially the same, which they are not). You ignore what Cincy had been doing on offense all half. You ignore he big picture of 3 vs 7. You ignore weather. You ignore a missing starter on the OL who called pass protections. You ignore trends of the half for us on offense, reflecting game planning (and likely, what was planned for the second half). You ignore what we did on an almost identical drive earlier in the quarter. You ignore the amount of time left on the clock. You ignore what Mike Scifres can do and how strong or coverage teams have generally played. You ignore a lot of potential negative consequences of pass attempts. And you ignore what would have to be considered the mindset of a road dog battling Cincy to a standoff in the first half. To you it's all about this nebulous "first and 13" as if it could be at the 50 with 2:00 to go in the 4th Quarter or at the 8 down 27 with 2:00 to go in the 2nd quarter.

There is certainly an argument to be made that you could have played it more aggressively. But to call people delusional or idiots or apologists because they don't see it your way is indicative of a lack of respect for other views or for what is a fairly common strategy employed by NFL coaches at the close of the first half. I'm sorry you are spending your week after a big Chargers post season win obsessing about something which did not materially harm our team or threatened the outcome of that game. Frankly, it doesn't pass the smell test. It kind of seems like you have a larger agenda about McCoy. And based on your posting history on the subject of McCoy's game management, that's a pretty solid guess.

Mike McCoy has done a great (not perfect) job this season. I"m shocked that this is a playoff team. We're playing beyond our talent level, particularly in light of the many injuries. You'd think people would be just happy with that since many passionate and knowledgeable fans thought we would be dueling it out for a top 3 pick. One wonders what you will be posting about if we win this week, or heaven forbid make the Super Bowl. I just dont get it.

The Mathews run was fine. I did not have a problem with running the ball. All of my posts are talking about what happened after that. No need to try and spin everything, it was a holding penalty which normally set you back to 1st and 20 but instead only set us back to 1st and 13. Its silly to call it an 8 yard penalty, if Mathews scores with the hold are you going to call it a 92 yard penalty? They did not gain 7 on the first play of the series, they got penalized 3 yards. We all know what happened there so I don't see the need to try and put spin on it.

When you are faced with more than 10 yards on first down a team will generally think that 3 running plays is not the way to go about getting a first down. I am not saying pass 3 times or throw the ball down the field. 3 runs may very well work if you have success on earlier downs. We did not. 1st and 13, 2nd and 12, 3rd and 11. I don't understand why I should even bother explaining this. As run heavy as our game plan was we only had 3 consecutive runs in the first half one time when we ran it 5 straight, but that was with no penalties and having successful gains on early downs (and we passed twice on that drive previous to those runs) 2nd and 4, 2nd and 6, 3rd and 1. You know why? Because on the previous possesions in the half we were trying to move the ball, at 1st and 13 we were trying to milk clock and make them burn timeouts. Heck, on a previous possesion we started at the 5 yard line and we ran it twice for 8 yards and then tried to pass on 3rd and 2! Clearly their is huge amount their to explain why I think they were simply trying to bleed clock and punt.

Is that enough context for you?

Have no idea what you mean about the 16 vs the 8. Clearly we were more aggressive from the 5 yard line earlier in the game. At the 8 yard line you are not going to get a penalty resulting in a safety or anything like that.

Weather. I am not ignoring it. It wasnt a factor. You think the weather was bad?

The missing starter on the OL. I havent ignored that either. I stated that may have been what they were thinking. Heck I excused McCoy for the Tennesse refusal to pass for the same reason.

The trends? Maybe, I completely reject the idea that managing the end of the first half to go down by 3 was something the coaching staff thought was just fine and dandy. I also reject the idea that running on all those plays was designed to set up play action in the next half. That all seems down right silly to me.

Identical drive in the first quarter? You talking about the one that started at the 5 yard line where we passed on 3rd and 2 from the 13? Seems to support my point since we ran on 3rd and 11 from the 10 in the sequence I am critical of.

The time left on the clock? I am not ignoring that at all, I think that is the entire reason they did what they did and I think it was clearly a mistake.

Mike Scifres? If you say so. I have acknowledged the excellence of his punt and the coverage while pointing out the bengals still got good field position and that while we were fortunate to get that type of kick I think it was a mistake to count on it. What you could count on was Cincy getting good field position, and they did get that.

The potential negative consequences of a pass attempt? I acknowledged an incomplete pass would be bad if we had to punt. I also addressed the negative consequence of a pick 6. I think it's not something you should be worried about, you cant coach scared, you can't not pass because you fear a pick 6. It was a tie game in the first half, why would we be worried about a pick 6? We were not on the possesion that started from the 5. A pick 6 gives us the ball back with 2 timeouts and near 2 min left in the half down 7. Run and punt very well could have lead to us down 7 with no time left. The second scenario is worse than the first.

The mindset of a road dog? Personally I don't fee we had that mind set at all. I think we were confident we would win. Not sure what it really has to do with any of this. Managing the end of a half you can throw game plans out the window, you are in 2 minute mode.

To me is all about "giving up" after the holding penalty, trying to milk the clock and punt the ball to Cincy. I think there was way too much time left to do that. I was right.

[BlazingBolt]

You can't throw the ball short with 1:37 to go in the half inside your own 10. You have to throw the ball downfield. If you complete short passes, you run out of time. Those are even higher risk, because you also risk the int and/or incomplete passes. You are correct, you don't have to throw bombs, but you do have to start running routes 15-20 yards downfield. Once you start throwing passes past 10-12 yards, the chances of completing them goes way, way down. But there is no point throwing short passes at all. It is throw the ball downfield and try and score, or kill the clock. And since the throwing 15-20 yards downfield is low percentage, they opted to just try and kill the clock, which they did.

And I don't have any idea of what you think momentum is. In my mind, it is every player on a team knowing they dodged a bullet. The Cinci game we dodged a huge bullet coming out at the half only down by only 3, instead of down 21-7. That is the momentum swing. The players knew the game plan was to throw it in the 2nd half, they knew the D was going to be able to adjust. So, coming out of the 1st half just down by 3 is a defensive success. Maybe momentum is the wrong concept, but we succeeded magnificently.

As far as momentum talk, then there is never any basis for momentum being talked about. Any feeling you have about momentum is just as abstract as mine (it's just an quantifiable concept). So we should never, ever, ever talk about momentum, like our old coach used to (Norv didn't believe in it).

The part that hurt the Bengals the most, is I am pretty sure the Bengals felt like they were taking over the game right before Butler stripepd the ball. They had driven the length of the field. They were about to get a 1st and goal to go, and then if they had played good D (something they had done all season), been able to get the ball back and potentially score again by halftime. Then they have the fumble. We run the ball 3 times and bleed most of the time off the clock. Scfries has a great kick, followed by an equally spectacular effort by Stuckey, and Cinci has the ball back, but only marginal field position for a FG, and not enough time to really score a TD. Cinci uses the rest of the half to drive and get in field goal range, but never had a serious chance at scoring a TD. But for Cinci, they must have been feeling pretty good right up until Stuckey hit their punt returner, because a decent return there gives them a chance to take a shot for 7. So walking out with only 3 had to be a letdown. Especially for a Cinci team which is not a very strong passing team, who likes to mix in play action and running. They are at their best with a comfortable lead. That is what I meant by momentum shift.

Come on now steve. Running out of time was a perfectly acceptable option, what are you even talking about? It is way more acceptable than punting the ball back to them.

In order to kill the clock we needed a first down.

To me we had a huge momentum play with the Butler strip that was completly wasted by run and punt and give up a FG.

[QSmokey]

Well, I understand that. I don't quite have that issue, but I can identify with it. I get very anxious. My wife was gone for a meeting during most of the first quarter and then came home to watch. When she got home she wanted to tell me all about it (kind of an important meeting for her and for us), and I just didn't respond to it at all appropriately. Now in fairness to myself, she should have known better than to try to talk to me about anything else at that time but, still, I wasn't very nice. And then pretty much until the Ingram pick, I was standing up and sitting down and walking outside during the breaks and stuff. Just restless LOL

I remember as a kid, I would cry when the Chargers lost. I think that's why I always have this sinking feeling on Sundays, whether during football season or not. But I give you credit for finding a way to address it.

If I sit down to watch a game with my wife, the conversation goes something like this:

Scene: QSmokey's living room, Charger game on big screen.

[Charger ball, Rives is strip-sacked at our own 12-yard-line]

QSmokey (yelling): GODDAMN IT! You suck, Reinhart!
Wife: Oh, darn.
QSmokey (to wife): "Oh darn"??!! Is that all you can say? We just gave the fucking ball away, deep in our own territory and all you can say is "Oh darn"?
Wife: You're not being very nice.

[Opponent's first play is an 11-yard run, two missed tackles, ball carrier is tripped up at the 1-yard line]

QSmokey: FUCKING SHIT!
Wife: Ya! They didn't score. We stopped them!
QSmokey: Really, wife? Really? They got a first-fucking down; we missed two tackles; they're on the 1-yard line and about to score on our sorry ass team and you think that's a GOOD thing? WTF?
Wife: That was a nice tackle.

[Next play. They score]

QSmokey: Shit. We suck. Turn this shitty game off!
Wife: Don't be selfish; I like watching the games.
QSmokey: You like watching them get their butts kicked? How can you sit there and watch them lose?
Wife: It's the first quarter; they're only down 7. They're gonna win.
QSmokey (mumbling): You don't know anything about football.
Wife: What did you say?
QSmokey: Nothing. I was talking to Kodi. Told him he was a good boy.
Wife: Hmmmm....

[Ensuing KO. Hawkins fields the ball 9 yards deep.]

QSmokey: Take a knee, you fucking idiot!
Wife: Run!

[Hawkins makes a nice spin move; get's plastered at the 19]

QSmokey: Stupid shithead! Take a fucking knee jerkface!
Wife: Nice runback!! 28 yards!
QSmokey [taking a deep breath]: Wife, he didn't even make the 20. If he took a knee in the EZ, we would have had to ball at the 20. We lost a yard on that "nice runback".
Wife: I like to see them run it out; more exciting.
QSmokey: Oh brother. We're getting embarrassed on National TV and you're enjoying it. ** sigh **
Wife: Take the dogs for a walk!

[QSmokey gets up and takes dogs for a walk. End of scene].

[KNSD]

How do I archive this?

http://www.thepowderblues.com/forum/...3620#post63620

Hey man, wasn't trying to come off too harsh there. My apologies if you took it another way.

[BlazingBolt]

Harsh? You said I was right and he agreed with every word.

My problem with McCoy is just some of his game management at this point but I agree he has done a find job in other areas. I just think game management errors are entirely avoidable self inflicted wounds and I wish he did a better job with it.

I guess I am a bit flabbergasted at the defenses of this error and I am probably trying to avoid thinking too much about the Denver game.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

The part that hurt the Bengals the most, is I am pretty sure the Bengals felt like they were taking over the game right before Butler stripepd the ball. They had driven the length of the field. They were about to get a 1st and goal to go, and then if they had played good D (something they had done all season), been able to get the ball back and potentially score again by halftime.

And don't forget that Cincy knew they were getting the ball to start the second half.

[oneinchpunch]

Harsh? You said I was right and he agreed with every word.

My problem with McCoy is just some of his game management at this point but I agree he has done a find job in other areas. I just think game management errors are entirely avoidable self inflicted wounds and I wish he did a better job with it.

I guess I am a bit flabbergasted at the defenses of this error and I am probably trying to avoid thinking too much about the Denver game.

In the game day thread almost everyone agrees with you. Only after the game did that change because the team won.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

The Mathews run was fine. I did not have a problem with running the ball. All of my posts are talking about what happened after that. No need to try and spin everything, it was a holding penalty which normally set you back to 1st and 20 but instead only set us back to 1st and 13. Its silly to call it an 8 yard penalty, if Mathews scores with the hold are you going to call it a 92 yard penalty?

The penalty was from the spot of the infraction. That's not spin. But calling it a three yard penalty is spin.

They did not gain 7 on the first play of the series, they got penalized 3 yards.

That was the gain prior to the penalty being called. You're really getting in the weeds here.

When you are faced with more than 10 yards on first down a team will generally think that 3 running plays is not the way to go about getting a first down.

You're absolutely right absent any context whatsoever.

I don't understand why I should even bother explaining this.

I don't understand why I should even bother explaining the strategy that was pursued to someone who professes he has never seen an NFL team pursue it at the conclusion of a first half, including his favorite team, which was at one point coached by Marty Schottenheimer.

Is that enough context for you?

Apparently not, since you are applying standards from other situations to this one. I'm sorry you're stuck in neutral, dude. But that's a YP.

Have no idea what you mean about the 16 vs the 8. Clearly we were more aggressive from the 5 yard line earlier in the game. At the 8 yard line you are not going to get a penalty resulting in a safety or anything like that.

Ugh. Ok, I'm out. When I've got to remind you of your own points, there's too much burden for me to carry you.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Harsh? You said I was right and he agreed with every word.

You stopped reading at "BB is right." Read the rest. I agree with the post in it's entirety. If you want to parse individual sentences, then no.