New defensive terminology

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  • Steve
    Administrator
    • Jun 2013
    • 6874
    • South Carolina
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    New defensive terminology

    The Gus Bradley/Pete Carroll/Tony Dungy/Floyd Peters/Monte Kiffin/George Siefert 43/34 defense has been around college forever and the NFL since the mid 1980's, on and off.

    The big difference between old versions and the one will be using, based on what Gus Bradley has done recently is:

    1). Use 3 bigger DL and 1 rush Tweener/Hybird OLB/DE.
    2). Unlike his co-worker Carroll and Bradley always seemed to like playing more press coverage in a 3 deep secondary, while the cover 2 guys (Kiffin and Dungy) prefered the 2 deep secondary. And Seattle is a rarity in that they tend to play a lot of man to man, while most of the other 34/43 over teams tend to play more zone (which is how most teams tend to play pass coverage anyway).
    3). The latest incarnation of the Bradley-Carroll version is that they play a lot more 2 gapping, while other defenses have been mostly 1 gap defenses. It hurts their early run down pass rush, but puts their DL in a better position to contain the run, allowing the LB more room to run.

    Defensive terminology

    Leo - Rush OLB/DE - This position was what Charles Haley used to play for the 49ers under George Siefert and was called the Elephant back then. Basically, you flip flop the Leo/Elephant DE to the open side of the formation, so he won't get slowed down by the TE. But by flip flopping him, it also means he will be a bit slower off the ball, since he has to learn 2 sets of hand/foot motions. But the Leo, despite looking and being called a LB in some forms of the 34/43 D, is just a pass rusher. THey only drop him into pass coverage when running zone blitzes. Usually the player aligns wide, forcing the OT to come out in space to block him, and defend the C gap (outside the OT). Athletic abilty is the most important quality.

    SAM/Otto- Drop OLB - This is the position KJ Wright plays for the Seawaks and Bill Romanowski played for the 49ers. The Leo is the rusher, so the other OLB has to cover. Usuaully, but not always this player will get moved to play DE on passing downs, but it depends on what the player is good at. Most of the time, the player aligns outside the TE, and never can get reached in the run game. This technique is the 9 technique spot in the D. Often has the TE in man coverage. Will follow him in motion.

    5 Technique DE - Bosa will play this spot. The key is he has to be a good outside leverage guy, who can squeeze down the strong side C gap, but not allow him to get hooked inside. This guy has to work with the SAM/OTTO player and prevetn the outside run, so the Free Safety can come up and fill the inside gaps and takeaway the cutback.

    3 technique DT - In Seattle D, this guy has to be stout and is often used as a s 2 gap player. Even when he is a 1 gapping, he is not to get too far upfield. This is a major difference from most 3 technique guys, who are asked to penetrate and disrupt the offensive backfield. The Bradley/Carroll D, the guy is a leverage player vs the run. On passing downs, a smaller quicker guy will be brought in. Probably the ideal guy would have been John Parella or Shawn Lee. Guys who can get in a gap and then not get moved out no matter what. Liuget is the guy who would play this spot if the season started tomorrow.

    1 technique DT - This is Mebane's old poisition, and is pretty much exactly how we have used our NT. A guy like Mebane may play it more like a 2 gap, or a tilt techique (line up in 1 gap, but playing on an angle so that he can close down and read the gap on the other side of the C), so that he is playing along the line, rather than penetating. This player may also get subbed out on passing downs. I expect Mebane and Square will play this spot.

    The key thing that has made the Carroll D so successful is that he has been extremely felxible in how he has used his personnel. Not too many HC would be willing to play Red Bryant as your starting DE weighing 323 pounds, when Mebane and Alan Branch were both smaller and faster than Bryant was. But Bryant had the outside leverage and would never get hooked, so they were almost impossible to run outside on. Mebane was avalible to almost everyone but because he is short and not real big, only Seattle realized that if he was 6'4" he would weight about 350lbs, and at 6' was so short no one could get low enough to get leverage on him. But when Bryant got too expensive, they replaced him with Cliff Avril (who weighs about 260lbs), and their run D is still awesome.

    The point is that they don't get hung up on having a prototype guy for a position, they just worry about what each player needs to do to make the D successful. Whether it is Red Bryant at DE, or Cliff Avril, the 5 technique DE can't get hooked and caught inside. IF the 3 technique is a quick guy, they let him get into the gap, but the key is not over penetrating, which is why Alan Branch played the spot at 330lbs, and probably never got into the backfield all season.

    The other big thing that has made Seattle so good is that they do the rugby tackling and they practice tackling every single day. Thy don't tackle live or in pads, but they do some work every single day. The Seahawks haven't led the league with the fewest missed tackles every year (not sure if they have done it at all), but they are consistently among the leaders and they allow very, very few yards after contact. It has been a huge part of their success. It has been a huge part of the Chargers failings on D, allowing players to get a lot more yardage, even when the D has basically defended a play pretty well.
  • Fleet
    TPB Founder
    • Jun 2013
    • 14162
    • Cardiff - Poipu
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    #2
    1. Solomon Thomas DE
    2. Jarrad Davis LB maybe Cunningham if available.
    3. Marcus Williams (FS)
    4. Davin Tomlinson(DT)

    Edit i messed up and forgot to draft Brantley. lol Put Tomlinson at 3T)

    Comment

    • bonehead
      Undrafted
      • Jul 2013
      • 5209
      • TBD
      • Retired
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      #3
      Originally posted by Steve View Post
      The Gus Bradley/Pete Carroll/Tony Dungy/Floyd Peters/Monte Kiffin/George Siefert 43/34 defense has been around college forever and the NFL since the mid 1980's, on and off.

      The big difference between old versions and the one will be using, based on what Gus Bradley has done recently is:

      1). Use 3 bigger DL and 1 rush Tweener/Hybird OLB/DE.
      2). Unlike his co-worker Carroll and Bradley always seemed to like playing more press coverage in a 3 deep secondary, while the cover 2 guys (Kiffin and Dungy) prefered the 2 deep secondary. And Seattle is a rarity in that they tend to play a lot of man to man, while most of the other 34/43 over teams tend to play more zone (which is how most teams tend to play pass coverage anyway).
      3). The latest incarnation of the Bradley-Carroll version is that they play a lot more 2 gapping, while other defenses have been mostly 1 gap defenses. It hurts their early run down pass rush, but puts their DL in a better position to contain the run, allowing the LB more room to run.

      Defensive terminology

      Leo - Rush OLB/DE - This position was what Charles Haley used to play for the 49ers under George Siefert and was called the Elephant back then. Basically, you flip flop the Leo/Elephant DE to the open side of the formation, so he won't get slowed down by the TE. But by flip flopping him, it also means he will be a bit slower off the ball, since he has to learn 2 sets of hand/foot motions. But the Leo, despite looking and being called a LB in some forms of the 34/43 D, is just a pass rusher. THey only drop him into pass coverage when running zone blitzes. Usually the player aligns wide, forcing the OT to come out in space to block him, and defend the C gap (outside the OT). Athletic abilty is the most important quality.

      SAM/Otto- Drop OLB - This is the position KJ Wright plays for the Seawaks and Bill Romanowski played for the 49ers. The Leo is the rusher, so the other OLB has to cover. Usuaully, but not always this player will get moved to play DE on passing downs, but it depends on what the player is good at. Most of the time, the player aligns outside the TE, and never can get reached in the run game. This technique is the 9 technique spot in the D. Often has the TE in man coverage. Will follow him in motion.

      5 Technique DE - Bosa will play this spot. The key is he has to be a good outside leverage guy, who can squeeze down the strong side C gap, but not allow him to get hooked inside. This guy has to work with the SAM/OTTO player and prevetn the outside run, so the Free Safety can come up and fill the inside gaps and takeaway the cutback.

      3 technique DT - In Seattle D, this guy has to be stout and is often used as a s 2 gap player. Even when he is a 1 gapping, he is not to get too far upfield. This is a major difference from most 3 technique guys, who are asked to penetrate and disrupt the offensive backfield. The Bradley/Carroll D, the guy is a leverage player vs the run. On passing downs, a smaller quicker guy will be brought in. Probably the ideal guy would have been John Parella or Shawn Lee. Guys who can get in a gap and then not get moved out no matter what. Liuget is the guy who would play this spot if the season started tomorrow.

      1 technique DT - This is Mebane's old poisition, and is pretty much exactly how we have used our NT. A guy like Mebane may play it more like a 2 gap, or a tilt techique (line up in 1 gap, but playing on an angle so that he can close down and read the gap on the other side of the C), so that he is playing along the line, rather than penetating. This player may also get subbed out on passing downs. I expect Mebane and Square will play this spot.

      The key thing that has made the Carroll D so successful is that he has been extremely felxible in how he has used his personnel. Not too many HC would be willing to play Red Bryant as your starting DE weighing 323 pounds, when Mebane and Alan Branch were both smaller and faster than Bryant was. But Bryant had the outside leverage and would never get hooked, so they were almost impossible to run outside on. Mebane was avalible to almost everyone but because he is short and not real big, only Seattle realized that if he was 6'4" he would weight about 350lbs, and at 6' was so short no one could get low enough to get leverage on him. But when Bryant got too expensive, they replaced him with Cliff Avril (who weighs about 260lbs), and their run D is still awesome.

      The point is that they don't get hung up on having a prototype guy for a position, they just worry about what each player needs to do to make the D successful. Whether it is Red Bryant at DE, or Cliff Avril, the 5 technique DE can't get hooked and caught inside. IF the 3 technique is a quick guy, they let him get into the gap, but the key is not over penetrating, which is why Alan Branch played the spot at 330lbs, and probably never got into the backfield all season.

      The other big thing that has made Seattle so good is that they do the rugby tackling and they practice tackling every single day. Thy don't tackle live or in pads, but they do some work every single day. The Seahawks haven't led the league with the fewest missed tackles every year (not sure if they have done it at all), but they are consistently among the leaders and they allow very, very few yards after contact. It has been a huge part of their success. It has been a huge part of the Chargers failings on D, allowing players to get a lot more yardage, even when the D has basically defended a play pretty well.
      Good job Steve....will there be a test? : )

      Since there is flexibility with this D is there a chance for avg. Players like Liuget and Addai (or others ) to excel?

      Does this give us flexibility in the draft or is there a must have position that needs to be filled to make it work?
      Forget it Donny you're out of your element

      Shut the fuck up Donny

      Comment

      • Heatmiser
        BetterToday ThanYesterday
        • Jun 2013
        • 5084
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        #4
        Excellent breakdown Steve.

        I think a key to the success Seattle has had in their system is their strong safety play. And the defense has dipped a bit when chancellor held out and when Thomas was injured. Safety play is the biggest deficiency in the bolt defense. This is why I hope they draft hooker (sorry fleet) who has the potential to be a bigger Thomas.

        Also I think we should all expect this defense to struggle at first. They have been in the wade system for about 10 years.

        TG
        Like, how am I a traitor? Your team are traitors.

        Comment

        • Mister Hoarse
          No Sir, I Dont Like It
          • Jun 2013
          • 10266
          • Section 457
          • Migrant Film Worker
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          #5
          Originally posted by bonehead View Post
          Good job Steve....will there be a test? : )

          Since there is flexibility with this D is there a chance for avg. Players like Liuget and Addai (or others ) to excel?

          Does this give us flexibility in the draft or is there a must have position that needs to be filled to make it work?
          Safety and Safety.
          Dean Spanos Should Get Ass Cancer Of The Ass!
          sigpic

          Comment

          • blueman
            Registered Charger Fan
            • Jun 2013
            • 9301
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            #6
            Originally posted by Heatmiser View Post

            Also I think we should all expect this defense to struggle at first. They have been in the wade system for about 10 years.

            TG
            Eh, they've been struggling enough. If Bradley is all that, they should start hot out of the gate.

            Comment

            • Formula 21
              The Future is Now
              • Jun 2013
              • 16939
              • Republic of San Diego
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              #7
              Failing in the Wade system for 10 years.
              Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
              The Wasted Decade is done.
              Build Back Better.

              Comment

              • Steve
                Administrator
                • Jun 2013
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                • South Carolina
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                #8
                Lowry and Addai are both OK players, but both are much better zone players, and neither seems like they can excel with as many different roles as they have been asked before, let alone the new D. I think we need to keep both for a while, but neither is a long term answer, at least in this D. I think both could be better in defenses that ask them to do fewer things. But neither is going to be a dominant player.

                Lowry is nearing the end of a career. He is a 9 year guy, and has a few years left, but mostly that is just the lack of decent S in the NFL. Addai just kills his body and misses so much time. he is still developing, but he needs to stop going for the knockout blow. He also is very stiff in man coverage.

                We just have to be prepared that we probably aren't going to get S who are anywhere near as good as Thomas and Chancellor. IMHO, they are two of the best S in recent NFL history, so we aren't going to be able to find guys anyhwere near as good. But, going off last years play at S, we don't need 2 all pro S like Seattle has. 2 solid starters would be enough to dramtically upgrade the positions.

                We almost need to go for some bigger, slower CB type and develop them as S. That way, we get the coverage skills we want, while not taking forever to wait for top S talent to come through the draft. Colleges don't have many good S these days, and that isn't going to change anytime soon. If a guy can run well enough to play S in the NFL, they probably are used at CB in college.

                Comment

                • blueman
                  Registered Charger Fan
                  • Jun 2013
                  • 9301
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                  #9
                  What do you think of Hooker?

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                  • Steve
                    Administrator
                    • Jun 2013
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                    • South Carolina
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                    #10
                    Earl Thomas like. Not as polished because he didn't play football until a JR in HS and only 1 full season of starting experience at OSU, but the guy can fly and cover a lot of field. Takes some bad angles and a bit more of a hitter than solid tackler (still OK there, but a devistating hitter), so he needs to work on that. If we stick at #7, he would be an outstanding pick. We need to get him to turn into a film junk, because if he does he could be a better version of Ed Reed.

                    I like him a lot. He would be a great fit as a FS in our new D.

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