For the Reich haters

[Lightningwill_420]

Just pointing out that with limited Oline injuries, Reich can produce a huge fucking come-from-behind W and have the #1 O in the league against a playoff team. Not too shabby.

Yes. Reich, just like Norv, is good at calling plays when things are perfect. And I liked that, after getting Rivers sacked the first series and the series after the interception for a touchdown, he adjusted and called a bunch of short passes, especially after we lost some linemen. Reich didn't do that consistently last year - hopefully he's changed. One game isn't enough to erase my memory of a season of bad playcalling.

I can't yet call the Lions a playoff team. They were a playoff team last year, but they might suck this year. We'll see.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Reich in an interview credited Rivers with checking the play called in to the correct play for the defence presented so at least he is humble or gives credit were due...

[blueman]

Guess I don't feel bad about having one of the top QBs in the league, some of the best WRs and maybe the top 3rd down RB, also one of the better Ds. Just need health to not go into the toilet and we should make a lot of good teams look like Detroit did.

#noapologies

[Steve]

My K-Gun memories are hazy.

What stood out the most was the amount of time in shotgun with 3 receivers - looked to me like what the Run N Shoot was, but with a tight end.

Also - the hurry-up offense all the time - I think they stole that idea from the Bengals - who did it more as a trick play.

The QB, Jim Kelly, called his own plays, which wasn't something that was done much back then.

This wasn't the West Coast offense though. Not too many quick passes. Many of the passes were Air-Coryell style 20 yards and deeper. Other passes were shorter throws to Thurman Thomas.

I don't remember a power running game. Thomas was a receiving back who did a lot of delayed runs. But, yea, my memory is hazy - maybe there was a power running game that I don't remember. He got an awful lot of yards rushing, so Steve is probably right - that there were normal running plays and not just the Reich delays.

So, basically, I'd like to see the K-Gun minus the longer passes.

Kgun was all about spreading a team out. Buffalo mostly ran 3 WR. And when they did that, they ALWAYS spread the other team across the field. The 2 outside receiver (Don Beebe and James Lofton) were mostly deep threats, so defenses HAD to defend the whole length of the field, so the TE, slot WR and RB where really the primary threats, and they had a ton of space to use. The only time Buffalo changed personnel was for short yardage and goalline. They would occasionally use other personnel groups, but they NEVER subbed during a drive unless it was an injury. They were the 1st team to go out and really run all no huddle almost all the time. And they always would go up to the line and call the play as soon as they could get everyone back. They were deliberately trying to keep the D from subbing. Kelly called most of the plays, but he did get guidance from the sidelines, and as always, the HC could call the plays for specific situations. Buffalo would run 2 RB or 2 TE from time to time, but once they sent a personnel group out, they didn't sub until something in the game forced them to.

We really don't do much of that. We have Floyd as a deep threat, but we don't have the 2nd deep guy. All the routes have to change accordingly. We also play with a lot more variety with the splits of the WR, and different route combinations. The Bills really never used their outside receivers on short crossing routes across the formation, but that is a staple of our offense. They mostly snapped the ball quickly, one play after another, but Rivers doesn't even really run a true no huddle. We do what is called a muddle huddle, where we go up, and he calls the the play near the line, using the audible system, but then he takes more time. And we do a lot of subbing, so the other team is free to sub too. The Bills were specifically trying to force the other team to keep their defense out on the field, we pretty rarely seem to be going for that.

We run mostly zone offense, with complementary runs (traps, draws, inside and outside zone, some counters). If nothing else, go back and look at the highlights of Woodheads rushing TD, Fluker pulls and traps the DT (who get too far upfield, and lets Fluker establish great position on him), and Watt blocks down (and does an awesome job creating room for the RB). Classic pull and trap action of a power run, but we ran a ton of inside zone, especially when Johnson was lined up as the I FB. But remember, in zone blocking the key is establishing the reach block. OL are coached to get across the DL face in the direction you call the play, and sometimes they have to give ground to do it. On the draw, the OL sets like it is a short set pass protection. The footwork is different, but if you just look at the bodies on the field, it looks a lot alike.

Run and shoot is different. Run and shoot offenses call very vague plays. Almost everything they do is based on how the defense aligns. That has largely passed out of favor since NFL teams realize you don't have to match up against run and shoot as much as just dictate to them what you want them to do. You want them to run into your D, align with few guys in the box, and they will run into it. So, make sure you have a couple of safeties crash down hard at the snap, you are good to go. Want them to pass into coverage, line up with 3 pass rushers, align extra DB/LB in the box, then have everyone drop at the snap. Want to blitz, just hide it presnap.

WC offenses favor short controlled passing, but that doesn't mean that they throw nothing else. WC is a multiple offense, like we are. Any playbook is filled with a ton of passing plays, so if you are squatting on the short routes, a WC team has the plays to pass you out of your short passes.

If an offense just throws short, what is going to stop the other team from jumping those routes? The running game is no good, you can be up close to the line to play the run and still drop into pass coverage. You have to mix in longer passes and there is just no way around it. I'm not saying most of our passes won't come out quick, but you cannot eliminate the longer passes or the other team is going to just stop you by jumping every short route, and anything you complete, will get tackled short. You have to give those receivers a chance to make a play after the catch, and they can't do that if there are a bunch of DB all near the line and then the S sitting right behind them. Even in a lot of the shorter throws, you still need to let the WR run some longer routes and push the D off. Then the throw may be short, but it is set up by the deeper throws. The 3rd down passes to Woodhead, he needs those WR and TE routes to clear out the underneath zones. Throw them too soon, the same defender can defend both of them. You need to give a WR a chance to get upfield/across the field, then Woodhead follows for a while, then goes the opposite direction, and one defender has two guys 10 yards apart, and it is a good thing.

[Lightningwill_420]

Kgun was all about spreading a team out. Buffalo mostly ran 3 WR. And when they did that, they ALWAYS spread the other team across the field. The 2 outside receiver (Don Beebe and James Lofton) were mostly deep threats, so defenses HAD to defend the whole length of the field, so the TE, slot WR and RB where really the primary threats, and they had a ton of space to use. The only time Buffalo changed personnel was for short yardage and goalline. They would occasionally use other personnel groups, but they NEVER subbed during a drive unless it was an injury. They were the 1st team to go out and really run all no huddle almost all the time. And they always would go up to the line and call the play as soon as they could get everyone back. They were deliberately trying to keep the D from subbing. Kelly called most of the plays, but he did get guidance from the sidelines, and as always, the HC could call the plays for specific situations. Buffalo would run 2 RB or 2 TE from time to time, but once they sent a personnel group out, they didn't sub until something in the game forced them to.

We really don't do much of that. We have Floyd as a deep threat, but we don't have the 2nd deep guy. All the routes have to change accordingly. We also play with a lot more variety with the splits of the WR, and different route combinations. The Bills really never used their outside receivers on short crossing routes across the formation, but that is a staple of our offense. They mostly snapped the ball quickly, one play after another, but Rivers doesn't even really run a true no huddle. We do what is called a muddle huddle, where we go up, and he calls the the play near the line, using the audible system, but then he takes more time. And we do a lot of subbing, so the other team is free to sub too. The Bills were specifically trying to force the other team to keep their defense out on the field, we pretty rarely seem to be going for that.

We run mostly zone offense, with complementary runs (traps, draws, inside and outside zone, some counters). If nothing else, go back and look at the highlights of Woodheads rushing TD, Fluker pulls and traps the DT (who get too far upfield, and lets Fluker establish great position on him), and Watt blocks down (and does an awesome job creating room for the RB). Classic pull and trap action of a power run, but we ran a ton of inside zone, especially when Johnson was lined up as the I FB. But remember, in zone blocking the key is establishing the reach block. OL are coached to get across the DL face in the direction you call the play, and sometimes they have to give ground to do it. On the draw, the OL sets like it is a short set pass protection. The footwork is different, but if you just look at the bodies on the field, it looks a lot alike.

Run and shoot is different. Run and shoot offenses call very vague plays. Almost everything they do is based on how the defense aligns. That has largely passed out of favor since NFL teams realize you don't have to match up against run and shoot as much as just dictate to them what you want them to do. You want them to run into your D, align with few guys in the box, and they will run into it. So, make sure you have a couple of safeties crash down hard at the snap, you are good to go. Want them to pass into coverage, line up with 3 pass rushers, align extra DB/LB in the box, then have everyone drop at the snap. Want to blitz, just hide it presnap.

WC offenses favor short controlled passing, but that doesn't mean that they throw nothing else. WC is a multiple offense, like we are. Any playbook is filled with a ton of passing plays, so if you are squatting on the short routes, a WC team has the plays to pass you out of your short passes.

If an offense just throws short, what is going to stop the other team from jumping those routes? The running game is no good, you can be up close to the line to play the run and still drop into pass coverage. You have to mix in longer passes and there is just no way around it. I'm not saying most of our passes won't come out quick, but you cannot eliminate the longer passes or the other team is going to just stop you by jumping every short route, and anything you complete, will get tackled short. You have to give those receivers a chance to make a play after the catch, and they can't do that if there are a bunch of DB all near the line and then the S sitting right behind them. Even in a lot of the shorter throws, you still need to let the WR run some longer routes and push the D off. Then the throw may be short, but it is set up by the deeper throws. The 3rd down passes to Woodhead, he needs those WR and TE routes to clear out the underneath zones. Throw them too soon, the same defender can defend both of them. You need to give a WR a chance to get upfield/across the field, then Woodhead follows for a while, then goes the opposite direction, and one defender has two guys 10 yards apart, and it is a good thing.

I re-watched the first half of last week's game.

We had 5 pass plays that took longer than 2.5 seconds for Rivers to pass. He was sacked twice, one pass was incomplete (almost intercepted), and two plays went for long gains - probably about 40 yards total.

All the other passes were quick - all were complete. Unfortunately, two were completed to the other team. Both interceptions were due to bad play by San Diego (mostly Rivers) and had nothing to do with the other team "jumping those routes." The main thing is nobody hit Rivers during the quick routes. He got hit twice during the long routes and a third time when Watt snapped the ball over his head.

[Boltergeist]

I think the problem is that sometimes as fans we focus on what works and don't always appreciate why it works. A lot of the team's success late in the game was set up by things that didn't work early. The TD pass to Green was set up by the runs to Woodhead that had mixed success earlier. The underneath passes get opened up by the threat of deep routes, even if they aren't completed. I commented in the first half that we always seemed to telegraph our blitzes. Later, we seemed to be telegraphing a middle blitz and then everyone dropped out but the Lions' blockers committed inside and Ingram got the hit that forced the interception in what I believe was just a four man rush.

[Lightningwill_420]

Started re-watching the second half.

First drive.

One medium pass resulted in a 15-or-so-yard gain. All other passes were quick. A couple incompletions, but mostly good gains. Ended up with a field goal. Rivers wasn't touched.

Second drive.

No passes. Fumble.

Third drive.

One quick route - touchdown. This comes right after Fluker gets hurt.

Fourth drive.

One medium route for about 15 yards. The rest were quick routes - touchdown.

5th drive.

I counted one medium route - I can't remember what the gain produces. Everything else was a quick route or a run. Somehow, one of the quick routes wasn't quick enough to avoid Rivers getting hit. That sucks, but we still score a touchdown and suck a lot of the time off the clock.

That's the last important drive. The next time we get the ball, we kneel down.


So, in the second half, we didn't have any long developing plays. No routes got jumped. Rivers only got hit once. A receiver tied a franchise record. And we won.

Short routes rule. Long-developing pass plays work sometimes, but they aren't good for Rivers's health.

[Steve]

I re-watched the first half of last week's game.

We had 5 pass plays that took longer than 2.5 seconds for Rivers to pass. He was sacked twice, one pass was incomplete (almost intercepted), and two plays went for long gains - probably about 40 yards total.

All the other passes were quick - all were complete. Unfortunately, two were completed to the other team. Both interceptions were due to bad play by San Diego (mostly Rivers) and had nothing to do with the other team "jumping those routes." The main thing is nobody hit Rivers during the quick routes. He got hit twice during the long routes and a third time when Watt snapped the ball over his head.

What about the 2nd half?

[KNSD]

"West Coast Offense" gets applied to too many different offenses. It's a lazy catch all people use to describe offenses.

[Lightningwill_420]

What about the 2nd half?

It's in a different message.

Every pass play was under 4 seconds.

Three medium routes - about 3 seconds each. All were good gains.

The rest were about 2.5 seconds. All the touchdowns were on quick routes.

Surprisingly, the only time Rivers got hit in the 2nd half was on a quick route. Nobody blocked the pass rusher. Rivers still completed the pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltkahbW5Cms

[Steve]

You need to stop timing them, because that is not how coaches time pass routes. The timing on a pass route is based on the # of step the QB takes. The pass goes out to the 1st read as soon as the QB last step hits. They are timed up for the route to break at the same time as QB goes through his drop.

But if the QB is hitting his 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th receiver, then it takes correspondingly longer. We got lucky that most of the plays hit pretty quick vs the Lions, but there are going to be some games the receivers need more time to get open, and/or Rivers needs to go to the later reads in the progression, so the ball will come out later.

Plays like those checkdowns to Oliver are useless routes if the QB throws them too soon, but if you wait till a zone team really gets deep in their drops, then Oliver (or anyone) can get a huge chunk of yardage.

Late last year, when we couldn't pass protect, teams just jumped the short route, knowing we couldn't protect Rivers to complete passes downfield. We had to throw short/quick and teams knew it.

Just think about what you are suggesting. That all you have to do to be a successful passing game is to throw quickly. Why wouldn't every NFL team do it? And if that is all it took, they would. But defenses can stop you if they know what is coming. Our offense is a multiple offense, meaning we do more than one thing. You stop one part, we have by design, complimentary options built in. We still have to execute.

The big thing will be how the OL comes together and plays down the stretch. Franklin and Dunlap got a lot more in synch as the game went on. That will get better as the season does. Zone blocking takes a lot of coordination. I don't know if anyone else was watching Air Force vs Mich St., but the Air Force OL really struggle in the 1st half because they knew who to block, and did OK at how (as individuals), but kept taking personnel fouls because one would hit low, and the other high and take a chop block call against them.

I think our OL is going to struggle through a couple of more games, then start to pick it up. It often takes groups with as much turnover as we have had the 1st quarter of the season to get everyone on the same page.

[Lightningwill_420]

You need to stop timing them, because that is not how coaches time pass routes. The timing on a pass route is based on the # of step the QB takes. The pass goes out to the 1st read as soon as the QB last step hits. They are timed up for the route to break at the same time as QB goes through his drop.

But if the QB is hitting his 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th receiver, then it takes correspondingly longer. We got lucky that most of the plays hit pretty quick vs the Lions, but there are going to be some games the receivers need more time to get open, and/or Rivers needs to go to the later reads in the progression, so the ball will come out later.

Plays like those checkdowns to Oliver are useless routes if the QB throws them too soon, but if you wait till a zone team really gets deep in their drops, then Oliver (or anyone) can get a huge chunk of yardage.

Late last year, when we couldn't pass protect, teams just jumped the short route, knowing we couldn't protect Rivers to complete passes downfield. We had to throw short/quick and teams knew it.

Just think about what you are suggesting. That all you have to do to be a successful passing game is to throw quickly. Why wouldn't every NFL team do it? And if that is all it took, they would. But defenses can stop you if they know what is coming. Our offense is a multiple offense, meaning we do more than one thing. You stop one part, we have by design, complimentary options built in. We still have to execute.

The big thing will be how the OL comes together and plays down the stretch. Franklin and Dunlap got a lot more in synch as the game went on. That will get better as the season does. Zone blocking takes a lot of coordination. I don't know if anyone else was watching Air Force vs Mich St., but the Air Force OL really struggle in the 1st half because they knew who to block, and did OK at how (as individuals), but kept taking personnel fouls because one would hit low, and the other high and take a chop block call against them.

I think our OL is going to struggle through a couple of more games, then start to pick it up. It often takes groups with as much turnover as we have had the 1st quarter of the season to get everyone on the same page.

I'm timing how long the pass rushers have to get to Rivers. I figure it would take longer than 2.5 seconds for a defensive player to beat a block and hit Rivers. Plus, that's the timing Manning and Brady were using when they were both tearing up the league.

I'm not saying the 2.5-second strategy should be used by every NFL team. I'm talking about the Chargers. Our only chance of winning the Super Bowl is keeping Rivers healthy. If we go to too many long-developing pass plays, Rivers is going to take the same beating he took last year when we tried that same strategy. Stick with the quick stuff like we did Week 1 this year. Then, when it looks like our line is capable of blocking for 4 or 5 seconds, sneak in a bomb or two.