2014 Official Draft Thread

[bonehead]

Down goes Yuba,,Down goes Yuba!!!!!!!

[Panama]

let's remember that English is not unproductive because of his physical skills. The guy is unproductive because he is hurt.

If I recall correctly, English got hurt fairly late in the season. I believe up to that point he'd been extremely unproductive, picking up one sack by sheer luck and nothing else. I no longer hold out hope that he can be productive even with a full season of health.

[Panama]

Ron Jeremy is a good one to sign if we need to go deep.

No, no, no, if you need a deep threat receiver, the obvious choice is Linda Lovelace.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

First, regarding the Steelers, they do draft good players that work very well in a 3-4 defense. That's a point I am making. Glad you noticed. Previously, they did focus on getting a good NT. They have had success in drafting OLBs. In my view their success with OLBs stems from the fact that they do not try to draft specialists. Instead, they try to draft players that they think can be complete OLBs. They all have pretty good short area quickness to chase plays down. They all are pretty good at rushing the QB. They are all stout against the run.

My belief is that 3-4 teams that have a run stopping strong side OLB that struggles to rush the QB and a fast pass rushing weak side OLB that struggles to shed blocks at the point of attack screw themselves because teams will play to their weakness on both sides. Against the Steelers in recent years there have been no OLB weaknesses.

You say we are not the Steelers. You're telling me. We are so incredibly soft that it disgusts me at times. Our "defensive pussy quotient" is through the roof. We can't add any more soft players. All new defenders must be able to defend the run vigorously. Our defense should strive to be the big bad boys on the block, something that is a far cry from what we are now.

Confusion in blocking assignments happens all the time in the NFL, especially when the defense has the ability to disguise itself, an ability which having interchangeable players enhances and having one dimensional players diminishes. The Steeler approach has worked and is a great model for 3-4 teams to follow.

It seems like we agree that neither Ford nor Shazier would be a good choice for us, so I hardly know what all the debate is about. If Shazier fell in the draft, then he would be of some interest to me in round 2-3 as an ILB as you suggest (a more athletic Donnie Edwards), but I think some 4-3 team will take him in round 2 to play LB on the weak side before we ever have the chance to get him after round 1. That's where he fits to me.

Also, C. Jones should be out there as an ILB after the first round, so I do not think there should be any pressure to take Shazier.

Rushing Yards Leaders
RK TEAM ATT YDS YDS/A LONG TD YDS/G FUM FUML
1 Arizona 370 1351 3.7 56 5 84.4 6 2
2 Carolina 352 1391 4.0 46 4 86.9 5 2
3 NY Jets 421 1412 3.4 63 9 88.3 5 0
4 San Francisco 397 1535 3.9 30 11 95.9 6 4
5 Cincinnati 385 1544 4.0 51 6 96.5 4 4
6 Detroit 377 1596 4.2 78 10 99.8 10 5
7 Denver 420 1626 3.9 35 15 101.6 9 4
Seattle 422 1626 3.9 51 4 101.6 7 3
9 St. Louis 440 1646 3.7 41 18 102.9 8 5
10 Philadelphia 443 1671 3.8 35 12 104.4 15 7
11 Baltimore 440 1687 3.8 43 7 105.4 6 2
12 San Diego 376 1725 4.6 46 14 107.8 4 2
13 Oakland 442 1727 3.9 45 15 107.9 6 3
14 NY Giants 454 1743 3.8 34 12 108.9 6 3
15 Tampa Bay 438 1762 4.0 56 10 110.1 6 4
16 Minnesota 443 1767 4.0 41 14 110.4 7 1
17 Washington 443 1769 4.0 50 23 110.6 8 3
18 Cleveland 462 1781 3.9 54 13 111.3 4 2
19 New Orleans 387 1786 4.6 52 11 111.6 3 2
20 Tennessee 446 1795 4.0 60 21 112.2 9 6
21 Pittsburgh 433 1849 4.3 93 18 115.6 7 4
22 Kansas City 428 1923 4.5 61 9 120.2 4 3
23 Houston 454 1958 4.3 80 11 122.4 7 3
24 Miami 484 1998 4.1 51 14 124.9 5 3
25 Green Bay 432 2000 4.6 41 16 125.0 3 3
26 Indianapolis 448 2002 4.5 56 14 125.1 8 4
27 Dallas 437 2056 4.7 60 17 128.5 4 3
28 Buffalo 471 2063 4.4 80 10 128.9 7 4
29 Jacksonville 507 2108 4.2 50 20 131.8 10 6
30 New England 481 2145 4.5 34 11 134.1 6 3
31 Atlanta 455 2173 4.8 80 14 135.8 5 2
32 Chicago 483 2583 5.3 65 22 161.4 11 3

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/position/defense

[Steve]

I still say that those stats don't tell us anything about our run D. They tell us that they weren't great, but it gives no insight at all into WHY. Why did we allow 4.6 yards per carry? But going back and watching the games, there were a lot of them where the players would have big breakdowns.

Often, Liuget and Reyes would hit the hole hard, explode upfield, then when the OL had walled them off, try to regain leverage. That is not a physical mistake, that is a mental mistake. When they stopped, late in the season, the D dramatically improved. Yuba seems to think that is a coincidence, and I don't.

He also seems to think a NT will dramatically improve our D, which I think is complete and utter bullshit, as teams didn't run at our NT. Thomas isn't a great NT, but he was not way out of position. Teams got so much running yardage by running at our DE, or cutting back inside once they got past him. I'm not saying Thomas played well, just that the real area for improvement will come at DE.

The place Yuba argument would have some merit, is if he wanted us to ditch Liuget and Reyes and get better DE. At some point, the play of our DE is the real issue, and better play would really make the whole D better. He has not gone there. The reason I haven't is because both Reyes and Liuget both seem to play better, and not continue to make the same mistakes, so they are responding to coaches. The question is if they are like the baseball hitters who continue to swing at bad pitches year after year, or do they finally show some plate discipline? Some would argue that it is an innate quality that cannot be taught, while others would argue that good players get better at it as they gain experience.

Maybe the thing is not the DE at all, in the sense that in a lot of games we just didn't have any rush at all from the OLB, and our young DE felt like they had to produce it themselves? I could see that, especially since Don Johnson is really a big first step guy at heart. Deep down, a lot of 43 slide DL coaches would rather the DL just penetrate like crazy and then tackle anything they run into. Problem is that doesn't work with the 34, because of the alignment and spacing of the DL and LB. But maybe that is what we did, it is hard to say. One thing is for sure, a bunch of stuff happened about the time Ingram came back and the whole D played a lot better. Now we need to find Ingram a partner in crime. And since we lost contain on the side opposite from Johnson an alarming amount, that is not a whole lot better then the DE play, IMHO.

[Yubaking]

Rushing Yards Leaders
RK TEAM ATT YDS YDS/A LONG TD YDS/G FUM FUML
1 Arizona 370 1351 3.7 56 5 84.4 6 2
2 Carolina 352 1391 4.0 46 4 86.9 5 2
3 NY Jets 421 1412 3.4 63 9 88.3 5 0
4 San Francisco 397 1535 3.9 30 11 95.9 6 4
5 Cincinnati 385 1544 4.0 51 6 96.5 4 4
6 Detroit 377 1596 4.2 78 10 99.8 10 5
7 Denver 420 1626 3.9 35 15 101.6 9 4
Seattle 422 1626 3.9 51 4 101.6 7 3
9 St. Louis 440 1646 3.7 41 18 102.9 8 5
10 Philadelphia 443 1671 3.8 35 12 104.4 15 7
11 Baltimore 440 1687 3.8 43 7 105.4 6 2
12 San Diego 376 1725 4.6 46 14 107.8 4 2
13 Oakland 442 1727 3.9 45 15 107.9 6 3
14 NY Giants 454 1743 3.8 34 12 108.9 6 3
15 Tampa Bay 438 1762 4.0 56 10 110.1 6 4
16 Minnesota 443 1767 4.0 41 14 110.4 7 1
17 Washington 443 1769 4.0 50 23 110.6 8 3
18 Cleveland 462 1781 3.9 54 13 111.3 4 2
19 New Orleans 387 1786 4.6 52 11 111.6 3 2
20 Tennessee 446 1795 4.0 60 21 112.2 9 6
21 Pittsburgh 433 1849 4.3 93 18 115.6 7 4
22 Kansas City 428 1923 4.5 61 9 120.2 4 3
23 Houston 454 1958 4.3 80 11 122.4 7 3
24 Miami 484 1998 4.1 51 14 124.9 5 3
25 Green Bay 432 2000 4.6 41 16 125.0 3 3
26 Indianapolis 448 2002 4.5 56 14 125.1 8 4
27 Dallas 437 2056 4.7 60 17 128.5 4 3
28 Buffalo 471 2063 4.4 80 10 128.9 7 4
29 Jacksonville 507 2108 4.2 50 20 131.8 10 6
30 New England 481 2145 4.5 34 11 134.1 6 3
31 Atlanta 455 2173 4.8 80 14 135.8 5 2
32 Chicago 483 2583 5.3 65 22 161.4 11 3

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/te...sition/defense

The very stat you cited shows that the Steelers were better, not worse than the Chargers in terms of rushing defense. The total yardage numbers are irrelevant. Teams ran against the Steelers 57 times more than they ran against us for all of 124 more yards. The telling number is that the Steelers yielded 4.3 yards per carry versus our worse 4.6 yards per carry. A chunk of the 57 extra attempts can be directly attributed to the fact that the Steeler defense was forced to be on the field longer each game than our defense was and opponents ran an average of 3 extra plays per game against them than they did us.

Also, this past season was clearly a down year for the Steeler defense. You did an awesome job of citing the only season in the past decade in which the Steelers were not in the top 10 in total defense. Why not cite one of the 6 seasons in which the Steelers were the #1 overall defense in the past decade? It's because those many seasons do not support what you attempting to imply by the stat you are citing.

[Yubaking]

I still say that those stats don't tell us anything about our run D. They tell us that they weren't great, but it gives no insight at all into WHY. Why did we allow 4.6 yards per carry? But going back and watching the games, there were a lot of them where the players would have big breakdowns.

Often, Liuget and Reyes would hit the hole hard, explode upfield, then when the OL had walled them off, try to regain leverage. That is not a physical mistake, that is a mental mistake. When they stopped, late in the season, the D dramatically improved. Yuba seems to think that is a coincidence, and I don't.

He also seems to think a NT will dramatically improve our D, which I think is complete and utter bullshit, as teams didn't run at our NT. Thomas isn't a great NT, but he was not way out of position. Teams got so much running yardage by running at our DE, or cutting back inside once they got past him. I'm not saying Thomas played well, just that the real area for improvement will come at DE.

The place Yuba argument would have some merit, is if he wanted us to ditch Liuget and Reyes and get better DE. At some point, the play of our DE is the real issue, and better play would really make the whole D better. He has not gone there. The reason I haven't is because both Reyes and Liuget both seem to play better, and not continue to make the same mistakes, so they are responding to coaches. The question is if they are like the baseball hitters who continue to swing at bad pitches year after year, or do they finally show some plate discipline? Some would argue that it is an innate quality that cannot be taught, while others would argue that good players get better at it as they gain experience.

Maybe the thing is not the DE at all, in the sense that in a lot of games we just didn't have any rush at all from the OLB, and our young DE felt like they had to produce it themselves? I could see that, especially since Don Johnson is really a big first step guy at heart. Deep down, a lot of 43 slide DL coaches would rather the DL just penetrate like crazy and then tackle anything they run into. Problem is that doesn't work with the 34, because of the alignment and spacing of the DL and LB. But maybe that is what we did, it is hard to say. One thing is for sure, a bunch of stuff happened about the time Ingram came back and the whole D played a lot better. Now we need to find Ingram a partner in crime. And since we lost contain on the side opposite from Johnson an alarming amount, that is not a whole lot better then the DE play, IMHO.

Steve, I disagree with your characterization of what happened against us. The problem was exactly as I described it. Way too many times we lost the battle at the line of scrimmage. Our guys were not penetrating as often as they were getting blasted out of the way. They weren't getting walled off; they were getting knocked off. We failed to stop the run because we lack run stopping defenders.

In short yardage situations, we almost never stopped the other team. Everyone on earth knew that the play was going to be a run and we couldn't stop it. That is the classic symptom of a team that is not physical enough up front. I didn't see a single team in the league that worse in this respect than we were. Honestly, I do not know what in the hell you were watching in order not to see that and see it repeatedly.

I do not know what planet you are living on when you suggest that all runs are away from the middle. We got gashed up the middle last year as well as on the outside. Teams had their choice against us for the most part. Beerman cited stats that showed we were bad against the run everywhere.

Further, a good NT helps out his other defenders by commanding double teams. This frees up other defenders to make plays. That is part of the basic 3-4 concept. What a shock, the Steeler run defense dropped off as soon as the Big Snack retired. What a shock, our run defense dropped off as soon as Jamal was no longer with us. What a shock, our run defense dropped off again as soon as Franklin was no longer with us. What an amazing coincidence!

Moreover, I am not exempting Liuget or Reyes from blame here at all. I have already said that Liuget is average in terms of physicality. He is only holding his own in that respect. Reyes is not getting the job done. That's why in my player groupings by draft round in the other thread, I have both Hageman and Tuitt as 3-4 DE candidates for us in the first round. They aren't my first choice on that list, but both players are on the short list of the 8 players I would take for us and my first 5 choices probably will not be there when #25 rolls around, which would make them 2 of my top 3 choices. So I wouldn't say I am giving our DEs a pass at all. I would say that in having Nix as the #1 priority, I continue to recognize the importance of the NT position in a 3-4 defense.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Interpitation of stats is subjective at best...

In the 3/4 Yubba wants the DE are asked to take on blockers, not the best use of Luigit and Rayes if you ask me.

[Steve]

Steve, I disagree with your characterization of what happened against us. The problem was exactly as I described it. Way too many times we lost the battle at the line of scrimmage. Our guys were not penetrating as often as they were getting blasted out of the way. They weren't getting walled off; they were getting knocked off. We failed to stop the run because we lack run stopping defenders.

In short yardage situations, we almost never stopped the other team. Everyone on earth knew that the play was going to be a run and we couldn't stop it. That is the classic symptom of a team that is not physical enough up front. I didn't see a single team in the league that worse in this respect than we were. Honestly, I do not know what in the hell you were watching in order not to see that and see it repeatedly.

I do not know what planet you are living on when you suggest that all runs are away from the middle. We got gashed up the middle last year as well as on the outside. Teams had their choice against us for the most part. Beerman cited stats that showed we were bad against the run everywhere.

Further, a good NT helps out his other defenders by commanding double teams. This frees up other defenders to make plays. That is part of the basic 3-4 concept. What a shock, the Steeler run defense dropped off as soon as the Big Snack retired. What a shock, our run defense dropped off as soon as Jamal was no longer with us. What a shock, our run defense dropped off again as soon as Franklin was no longer with us. What an amazing coincidence!

Moreover, I am not exempting Liuget or Reyes from blame here at all. I have already said that Liuget is average in terms of physicality. He is only holding his own in that respect. Reyes is not getting the job done. That's why in my player groupings by draft round in the other thread, I have both Hageman and Tuitt as 3-4 DE candidates for us in the first round. They aren't my first choice on that list, but both players are on the short list of the 8 players I would take for us and my first 5 choices probably will not be there when #25 rolls around, which would make them 2 of my top 3 choices. So I wouldn't say I am giving our DEs a pass at all. I would say that in having Nix as the #1 priority, I continue to recognize the importance of the NT position in a 3-4 defense.

Lacking run defenders is one way to look at it. It just doesn't happen to fit what happened. You should try watching the games. And most of the running yards are offtackle, which is not the same as being inside or outside, so you are dead wrong in your characterization. If the hole the DE is trying to defend is being run through, how is it not the DE problem? And since they are willingly moving out of the way, how is that a problem with being a bad run defender in the physical sense? It is a mental mistake, taking yourself out of the play.

the other thing you seem to be missing is if it is a physical problem, with our DL being outmatched, why did our DL improve and play better at times? Isn't that a major flaw in your weak theory?

Although I find your inconsistency about DE and OLB curious. You want to have every down OLB, yet not every down DE (DT). How is that not contradictory?

The stats Beer showed are just the same as reading the ones above. They don't get at the heart of what the issue is, if for no other reason than I have heard a lot of former NFL guys on radios disagree with the PFF scoring on many issues, particuarly with the running game.

The NT thing is just that, a coincidence. You have a theory that suggest that it is true, but no proof.

[Yubaking]

The Steelers play a very different D from us. They bring so much of their pressure from other spots they need more rounded players. And in case you have missed, since they implemented the current scheme, they have had big gaps during which they struggle to develop players. I don't see the need to develop skills that are not important. There are flawed players on all teams in the NFL. You cannot build a team without them. The key is how to develop the team. And since there is a shortage of good pass rusher in any case, I would rather we didn't take years off between developing OLB, like the Steelers do.

You can bitch about being soft, but you need to get your eyes examined. We don';t get beat because we are soft. That is a fictions of your imagination. We get beat because the guys we have on D don't always play the D being called, or don't all communicate well. If they are getting pushed around because they are soft, please explain our defensive success 2 years ago, and at the end of last year (or the beginning for that matter)? Did other teams stop trying to run against us? Our defensive knucklehead quotient is through the roof, but not the pussy quotient. When they all play the same D, they are pretty solid.

Confusion in blocking does happen all the time, when teams are bringing blitzes from the secondary. That has NOTHING to do with the 34 OLB being able to rush off either side. I haven't seen a 34 OLB get a sack because an OL was caught off guard in years. If you threaten the O with a lot of guys from the secondary and LB, yes it can happen, just like 43 teams can confuse OL. But it is bring the other guys outside of the front 4/5 that do it, not the OLB. No OL in the NFL makes the final roster that can be confused that easily.

That 34 thing that coaches always state about confusing blocking is the party line that sounds good and gets the chumps to give up asking questions about changing schemes. Playing a base 34, none of our sacks will come from just playing that alignment. In fact the age old coaching thing that 34/52 alignment is harder to rush the QB out of still holds true, and is why every NFL team plays even fronts to rush the QB from on passing downs.

Again, I don't even know why anyone cares what our base D is, or who is "starting". It is just such a stupid thing. For the last 20-30 years, the nickle is our REGULAR D. We play it most of the time, so that is where we need to put the best personnel. If we can find every down players in that set, then fine. But the guys who play the nickle are the guys who are the guys who will have the biggest impact. That is where the games are won or lost on D. And you still have to have depth. There will be injuries and the starters legs will be like jello come the 4th quarter if they have to play every down, so if you want to be able to rush the QB and get sacks in the 4th quarter, there better be some players who can rush the QB besides the starters.

If you are suggesting that we are saying the same thing about Shazier and Ford, then you need to find a better way to use the English language. To me, there is no way that we are saying the same thing. In your previous post you said TERRIBLE, not TERRIBLE IN THE 1ST ROUND. Terrible to me means - don't draft at all. It is no wonder none of us know what you are talking about most of the time.

Big gaps, WTF?! They have been the #1 defense in the league 6 times in the past decade! The also have a #2 and #4 in there if memory serves. Could we please have such "big gaps"?! What they have done has worked better than what any other team in the league has done.

You are simply dreaming/delusional if you think that we were not soft on defense. Not only were we soft on defense, we were arguably the softest team in the entire league. How many times did we stop a 3rd down and short? Try almost never. It was not because the players failed to understand or communicate about their assignments. It was because our players got beat physically. It was as simple as that.

When we had guys like Jamal or even Brandon Siler at ILB, we had a habit of stuffing those plays. There was nothing mental about it at all. Our guys were physically bigger/stronger and they forced those stops to happen.

Two years ago (2012), when we were 5th in the league in YPC against, we had different personnel. The biggest difference was that we had Franklin, who was very good for us. Also, old man Spikes was a more stout run defender than anyone we have at ILB right now. JJ was healthier in 2012 and he is currently our only standout run defender. We had Jammer in 2012 and he was better run defender than our current CBs are. Hell, even Martin seemed more stout against the run than Reyes was last year. But the biggest difference was Franklin, the NT, the most important player in a 3-4 defense.

Further, you keep talking about us playing a lot of nickel as though that means something about not needing a NT. I think you have things turned on their head. We could play more plays with the NT player on the field if our NT was worth a damn. I have previously cited several NTs that played way more than the 30-40% BS number of snaps you keep throwing out there. The difference is that those NTs are good players whereas our NTs sucked last year. I recently heard that Poe played over 90% of his team's defensive snaps last year. Raji and Ngata have played over 70% of their team's snaps in recent years. Jamal Williams routinely did not come out until third down and long when he was with us.

Regarding the issue of confusion, having more players that can blitz/rush the QB at any time gives teams more options than having specialized players including some that cannot rush the passer. Of course, the argument also extends to secondary players that can blitz. The more possibilities that an offense has to account for, the more likely the offensive players are to be confused.

And, of course, you are missing the other side of the coin when you talk about no OL being confused by a rushing OLB. But how about an OLB that has the reputation of being a pass rusher that lines up as if he is going to rush and then drops out into coverage unexpectedly. Has the offense accounted for the blitzer from the secondary. Maybe the hot read isn't where the QB initially thought it was going to be and the secondary player gets home for the sack in the confusion.

And what about the extra attention a known rusher causes? Is it possible that someone else will be opened up for the sack? Of course it is. That is part of the benefit of having skilled pass rushers on both sides. Ultimately, I think you are simply arguing against the mathematical reality that having more diversified players on the field gives you more options and more options to be accounted for increases the odds of confusion on the part of the offensive team. But go ahead and argue the mathematical reality if you must.

The only thing I am saying about the skilled pass rushers that I want to play for us is that they had better damn well be able to stand up against run blocking as well.

Finally, my English on the subject of Ford and Shazier has been clear and consistent. Because our team is soft, I do not want either Ford or Shazier as OLBs for our team at all. They represent an exacerbation of a problem that we already have (being too soft). When I spoke of drafting Shazier later, I am discussing the possibility of drafting an ILB, not an OLB. I don't even want Ford as the waterboy. I do want us to get one or more OLBs, but I am looking at players like Attaochu and C. Smith, who are bigger/stronger players that can also rush the passer that can't be run or away from and can also rush the passer (Steeler model all the way).

[Steve]

How did our DE suddenly improve if the answer is that they are soft? Just stick to one and answer it definitely? If the only answer is that they are soft players, why did they suddenly play well in stretches?

It strikes me that if they answer is that they were soft, then they would always be soft and incapable of playing better. Yet, if you look our of defensive performance for the last 2 years, largely the same personnel has played well in stretches. And you explanation cannot account for that.

The alternative is that they are not soft, and there was some other issue, mental mistakes. Which is in fact the case. Don't believe me, watch the games again. It's simple, just watch the DE and see. And when you do, that is what you will see. check their technique, check how they play, check the footwork, and it is all consistent. And it explains why they play well in some games and not in others.

[Beerman]

It's simply not true that we didn't allow a lot of yardage up the middle.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Average of 4.62 yards up the mid which ranked 30th. Only the. Bears and Pats had worse run defense up the middle.