2014 Official Draft Thread

[bonehead]

You know I was joking (just about nothing I write is serious). Let me know if you ever come to the middle of Zona.
But you won't have to share a beer. I'll buy you one and then drink from my own.

Do they have kosher beer in AZ?

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Would you take Ealy or Donald as a DE for pass rush downs? Luiget and Reyes over the guards, Ealy (or Donald) and Ingram outside the OTs? With 2 ILBs and 5 DBs (or 1/6). Spend that first on a pass rush specialist?

TBH with you I don't follow college ball enough to make that judgment. I am not sure I ever saw Donald play (or didn't notice him) and have some vague positive impressions of Ealy from having watched Mizzou a bit over the last couple of years. I do like him. But yes, I'd be OK with a pass rush specialist. As Steve and I discussed previously i this thread, specialization is a reality and there are roles that we simply do not have the correct personnel to fill.

The caveat is I would need to be convinced that he was a guy that had special rush skills...enough so, that he could make an immediate impact as a rookie. I don't mean like 12 sacks, but I do mean someone that can contribute pressure even with raw skills, basically pushing QBs over to Ingram. For me Bruce Irvin and Chandler Jones (and their rookie year production and career trajectories) might be comparisons to what what I would be hoping to find if we went that route.

However, I'm not so committed to Front 7 that I pass on clearly better talent at positions of lesser need. Obviously you've got to strike a balance.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

No doubt many will have the top cbs ranked differently.

I think Dennard is the better all around player. Much better against the run imo. He also dosnt have the grabbing issues that Gilbert has. If you watch him play you cans see he gets away with a lot of holds. I dont think he will get away with it in the pros.

I agree with that assessment based on what I saw as a fan. I don't have the knowledge or expertise to offer more than that. To me, Dennard is a classic defender. He's really good at jamming at the line and re-directing, is a good tackler and has excellent speed to work his man. I think he's the more polished of the two. I haven't seen as much of Gilbert but he's a heckuva athlete and could also add something in the return game for us. I dont think you can go wrong with either player, though I think Gilbert is less technically sound and needs to be coached up (and I'm not sold on Milus et al at this point).

If we were able to land either I would be quite pleased and feel like we had one side locked down.

[Kyle]

Can Moses play OG? Would be a solid backup plan at LT. Just noticed he said he can play anywhere. Love that attitude. I think that's a legit option if we decide to part with Clary/Rinehart.

Yeah he said he could play any tackle or guard spot. He's huge and if he can really play multiple spots, he seems to be just the kind of guy our coaching staff wants on the OL. Would be an ideal pick in the 2nd round.

[Kyle]

Kyle, I just wanted to say, I love your sig. Hypnotic. Any idea who she is?

No idea. Wish I knew.

[Kyle]

I wouldn't knock him too much. I could care less that he was a player. They are a dime a dozen. His real credential is that he is a former scout/front office guy. He does have some understanding of the behind the scenes stuff. And he knows what scouts look for.

That being said, I don't think he really analyzes things. He can state the obvious, and he can parrot back what people tell him, but I think he is like a lot of former players in that I don't think he can make any original conclusions.

As far as the not backing up his statements, is that really what he is like or is it him keeping things short for TV? It could be either. But overall I don't like him much either. Fortunately, he has a similar voice to a former boss of mine, so I can filter him out pretty easily.

That's funny... I wish I could filter him! My biggest pet peeve of his is his penchant for grandiose statements. He said Aaron Donald's workout was the best workout by a defensive lineman in the last 10 years. He later said it was the best DL workout ever. Hats off to Donald, that was an impressive workout to be sure. But best by a DL ever? I've heard the "best in 10 years" quote from him several times, including several this year. No problem giving players deserved kudos, but it comes off as exaggeration sometimes.

[Panama]

As a Jew, I can't go against Moses.

http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:arc:video:southparkstudios.com:a735351e-ed00-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30

[Steve]

That's funny... I wish I could filter him! My biggest pet peeve of his is his penchant for grandiose statements. He said Aaron Donald's workout was the best workout by a defensive lineman in the last 10 years. He later said it was the best DL workout ever. Hats off to Donald, that was an impressive workout to be sure. But best by a DL ever? I've heard the "best in 10 years" quote from him several times, including several this year. No problem giving players deserved kudos, but it comes off as exaggeration sometimes.

He is smart enough to know his days in the NFL are done if he gets kicked off NFLN. So, he makes sure that he sounds good and says all the right things to keep people tuned in.

If most fans realized that teams don't really have players rise or fall that much based on workouts, there would be a lot less interest in the combine. But they have found a market for showing workouts, so the NFLN is not exactly going to do anything to stomp that mistaken impression. But they love to feed into the fact that most people think the draft is this fluid process, and guys rise and fall based on workouts and such. In fact most teams are probably pretty set in terms of their player grades, and the workouts don't do that much in terms of guys rising and falling.

I think most of the rising and falling bit is that draft gurus live off of information collected by scouts. And for them, most of them are not going to let much slip. But as the process goes on, a bit more info slips, and slips and eventually you find out what NFL teams really think of players. This gives the apperance of rising and falling, but is probably just expresses how tired scouts, GM's and coaches get over the process.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

He is smart enough to know his days in the NFL are done if he gets kicked off NFLN. So, he makes sure that he sounds good and says all the right things to keep people tuned in.

If most fans realized that teams don't really have players rise or fall that much based on workouts, there would be a lot less interest in the combine. But they have found a market for showing workouts, so the NFLN is not exactly going to do anything to stomp that mistaken impression. But they love to feed into the fact that most people think the draft is this fluid process, and guys rise and fall based on workouts and such. In fact most teams are probably pretty set in terms of their player grades, and the workouts don't do that much in terms of guys rising and falling.

I think most of the rising and falling bit is that draft gurus live off of information collected by scouts. And for them, most of them are not going to let much slip. But as the process goes on, a bit more info slips, and slips and eventually you find out what NFL teams really think of players. This gives the apperance of rising and falling, but is probably just expresses how tired scouts, GM's and coaches get over the process.

I think this is accurate. The Combine is where the gurus probably get the most information about real teams' player assessments. They hear some personnel people talk about this guy or that guy and it helps the gurus fine-tune their mocks because now they remember that so and so from the Jags actually mentioned player X or said something negative about player Y. So for them, it appears like players are rising and falling.

As for the teams themselves, their board are likely close to set in a broad sense--what players slot in which rounds more or less. I do think the combine helps them rank those rounds and break ties positionally, but less so because someone ran a 4.37 vs a 4.5. More because of interviews and medicals (which NFLN doesnt show).

[Steve]

A guy like Sam would have potentially been able to really help himself with a good combine.

Good player, but questions about his size, speed and athletic ability. If he had gone in and run a good to great 40, benched a ton, and then looked really good in the drills, then suddenly issues about whether he can play OLB will mostly go away. But any questions people had are now just being reinforced. Some team was looking at him before as a guy not quite athletic enough to be a true OLB, and after the combine they still are thinking the same way. I think most teams forgive poor combine workouts if you can perform on your pro day. But he will have those same issues.

Where things can really be made or broken is the interviews and medical. Do you say the right sort of things. The chargers are big on drafting guys who just love playing football, so that is the vibe people want to give. A guy like Clowney who has let it slip that he wants to be a big star, is probably less of a guy that we would ever be interested in. Football is how he wants to do it, not that he is a football guy who just wants to keep playing.

John Spanos had a bit with Kevin Smith on all this a few weeks back. He basically said the same thing.

[Fleet]

I think the slide for Sam started at the Senior Bowl where he showed very poorly dropping into zone. He was as stiff as it gets. The majority of film on him is him just rushing the passer and hes really good moving forward. But i think his inability to move backwards is the reason he started slipping prior to the combine. Then he went and looked pretty shitty at the combine. He needs a lot of work to be more than just a pass rush specialists. Hes another guy i consider a lunch pale type who has a nose for the qb despite physical limitations. I wouldn't be opposed to drafting him in the 3rd or 4th as hes a solid pass rusher.

[Steve]

I think the slide for Sam started at the Senior Bowl where he showed very poorly dropping into zone. He was as stiff as it gets. The majority of film on him is him just rushing the passer and hes really good moving forward. But i think his inability to move backwards is the reason he started slipping prior to the combine. Then he went and looked pretty shitty at the combine. He needs a lot of work to be more than just a pass rush specialists. Hes another guy i consider a lunch pale type who has a nose for the qb despite physical limitations. I wouldn't be opposed to drafting him in the 3rd or 4th as hes a solid pass rusher.

Then comes the real question. For a 34 like we play, does any of that other stuff really matter? How good has any 34 OLB we have had been in pass coverage? Our OLB really just get into their drops, get deep enough that they can come up and make the tackle. And in any case, we play our OLB as either standup or down DE on 2/3 or more of our plays. And on the remaining 1/3, the guy is going to rush some of those, and playing the run, so his pass coverage really doesn't matter that much. He needs to be minimally proficient, but beyond that who really cares.

I really don't care if the guy is a pass rush specialist or not. We need guys who can play edge rusher, and if he can get after the QB, I would be fine with with that style of player in any round. Sam is not the best example of an undersized tweener, so I would not want him until 3rd or 4th, but the rest of that stuff is just extra stuff. Coverage, drills....whatever. Can he get after the QB?

Same thing with Ealy. The guy is not a classic OLB. But our OLB are really 52 DE, so if he can play down DE and rush the QB, sign him up. If he can't, then we need to keep Keiser and use him as the new JJ and then get Ealy on the field.